Was Martin St. Louis in the wrong for the 2014 Sochi situation?

[MadLuke]

Only thing is with Stamkos originally being on the team, it also would have made sense having MSL on the team going by that logic.

And Crosby-Bergeron was quite proven already....

 

[blundluntman]

St. Louis always struck me as a guy who had a real chip on his shoulder, maybe out of necessity when you consider his career trajectory to the pros. So I can't blame him for being upset about the omission (however, if he truly did request a trade, I'd have to say it wasn't the most professional thing to do). Yzerman was in a tough spot and while I understand fighting for your guys, I also understand the importance of team chemistry and personnel/deployment so I have to respect his decision. It's one of those situations where you wish things could've gone differently, but understand that it just is what it is.

 

[sr edler]

Remember this is a player who whined publicly about Omark doing a spin-o-rama shootout goal with the Oilers, and then promptly did a spin-o-rama shootout goal himself. Athletes are just people like everyone else and not above being petty. Often it's being this petty that pushes pro athletes over the top to become great or very distinguished in their field.

I also think St. Louis has said playing on Calgary's 3rd line (or whatever depth line it was) learned him play defence at the NHL level. Meaning he had at least some type of self-consciousness going on between the ears.

As for the Olympics, he had already played in the 2006 Olympics where the Canadian team had made a pretty pedestrian impression, so perhaps that played into it somewhat, regarding Yzerman's decision 8 years later down the road, I've no idea. And it's not like he set the world on fire in 2014 either, despite the gold medal. Zero points in 5 games while (still) not being great defensively.

As for the size thing, I'm 6'2" today but I was small as a young kid so I have that perspective, and I remember some people (mostly dumb people, but anyways) look at you in an overall lesser light just because of it. It's honestly a little weird. I remember hearing retrospectively some parent (a dumb parent, but anyways) even suggested I should have started school a year later because I was small in height as a young child, so I certainly get the chip on your shoulder thing, or even resentment or hate that can grow out of it.

 

[Crosby2010]

I can remember at the time thinking it was not the best pick with Yzerman. However, it's Yzerman, he picked a great team in 2010 and it isn't as if there wasn't a lot of thought that went into it. My only thought was if chemistry was an issue why not pick St. Louis since Stamkos was going to be there? It beats Kunitz. Claude Giroux not being named in my mind was probably a bigger story since there was this thought that him and Crosby in the same room wouldn't work out well (Philly/Pittsburgh rivalry). I do think Yzerman wasn't alone in that decision. He is obviously consulting the coaches and the rest of the management. The buck stops with him sure, but I also know at that time Mike Babcock had his preference of players he wanted. PK Subban may have won the weakest Norris in recent memory in 2013 but he still won the Norris. That being said, Babcock didn't want him on the team. And when he was on the team anyway he only played him in one game. I can see that simply because the defense he picked was well rounded and Subban was definitely a high risk player and we already had the guys who could rush the puck. Heck, they left off Letang in 2014! To me that was an omission. But what are you going to do? Canada was stacked. Even Eric Staal had a great year the year prior and him not being there was brought up.

Sometimes a playmaking winger just isn't what Canada is looking for. St. Louis is small, he's a pass first guy, and I am just not sure this was the vision they had for the team. This is why even before Huberdeau tanked that I wondered if Team Canada would have picked him for a best on best. They usually want their wingers to be snipers, shooters first. Big, possibly physical, strong defensively if need be. Fast as well. I don't know if a playmaking small winger fit on the vision of that team. Let's put it another way, if Crosby doesn't get a puck in the face and loses 25% of the season he wins the Art Ross by a country mile. Do we think of St. Louis the same?

I am not sure St. Louis handled it professionally, but at least whatever was said was private. Yzerman was in a tough spot, but he did do the right thing. Mike Keenan made some cuts in 1987 and 1991 that weren't popular. He even cut his own player from Philly - Dave Poulin - in 1987. Pat Quinn sat Curtis Joseph after a bad game in 2002. Brodeur comes in and we win gold. Does Cujo still take us to gold? Maybe, but it just didn't unfold that way. Quinn did this and it was his own goalie in Toronto he went against. There was criticism in 1998 that Bobby Clarke picked Lindros as captain of the Olympic team over Gretzky. So when a GM of an NHL team leaves off his own great player, then he is clearly playing fair and doing what is best for the Olympic team.

I also remember Yzerman's response to him "snubbing" some players. I am paraphrasing but I can remember him saying "Does anyone know what the word 'snub' actually means? It means to ignore a person." He went on to say that the Team Canada brass did not ignore the players not picked, they were talked about and thought about. And you know, he's right. Stevie Y can pick another Team Canada anyday in my mind. He won both times he did it.

 

[MadLuke]

I also remember Yzerman's response to him "snubbing" some players. I am paraphrasing but I can remember him saying "Does anyone know what the word 'snub' actually means? It means to ignore a person." He went on to say that the Team Canada brass did not ignore the players not picked, they were talked about and thought about. And you know, he's right. Stevie Y can pick another Team Canada anyday in my mind. He won both times he did it.

That someone quite disconnected with the modern use of the word:

Thesaurus results for SNUBBING

Synonyms for SNUBBING: rejecting, isolating, cutting, repulsing, repelling, slighting, cold-shouldering, stiffing; Antonyms of SNUBBING: respecting, honoring, valuing, admiring, cherishing, treasuring, prizing, worshiping

www.merriam-webster.com

as in rejecting
to deliberately ignore or treat rudely

Snubbing involve more than just not even thought about someone, it is some deliberate act of not inviting them.

Someone has to be big enough to be in the decider mind to be snubbed.

 

[Dingo]

St. Louis has got to be easily the most underrated two-time Ross winner. Crazy that he is Canadian, too, because typically the Euros get the short end a bit.

Like everyone said, Yzerman shouldnt have just picked 'his guys', but this guybwas someone he should have picked, I think.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Would it be akin to leaving Mitch Marner off in 2026? Ranks really high in scoring, playmaking first winger that doesn't necessarily score a lot of goals, not necessarily the big, hard hitting, forechecker type of wing.. but Marner is well regarded for PK, backchecking and in-zone defensive play.. although Giroux was kind of those things also and got left off.

 

[Crosby2010]

That someone quite disconnected with the modern use of the word:

Thesaurus results for SNUBBING

Synonyms for SNUBBING: rejecting, isolating, cutting, repulsing, repelling, slighting, cold-shouldering, stiffing; Antonyms of SNUBBING: respecting, honoring, valuing, admiring, cherishing, treasuring, prizing, worshiping

www.merriam-webster.com

as in rejecting
to deliberately ignore or treat rudely

Snubbing involve more than just not even thought about someone, it is some deliberate act of not inviting them.

Someone has to be big enough to be in the decider mind to be snubbed.

I am pretty sure there was some careful consideration to not inviting him. My guess is there would have been a long discussion over omitting him. So to me I don't consider that a snub. I consider that just simply being a numbers game on a stacked team. Hey, Denis Savard, Ron Francis, Bernie Federko, Adam Oates are among the Canadian centres never on a best on best. It is possible Francis is on the 1996 team if he isn't hurt, but he was hurt. Patrick Roy wasn't on a team until 1998! To me that's a much bigger omission. And let's not forget Bobby Hull in 1972 and the Team Canada's brass not picking him because of the WHA. So St. Louis has company, and some with much bigger cases in their favour. Savard not on the 1984 or 1987 team................man, that's tough. He'd have been golden I think. But oh well, it worked and he just didn't fit the team. Too many great centres.

 

[MadLuke]

Second language so I could be all wrong, but being good enough to be considered but not invited is what make it a snub, the fact a committee thought and voted him down is the snub, not something that remove being snubbed.

The tens of thousands of Canadians adult hockey players that were not even in the discussion were not snubbed, only those in reasonable contention for a spot can be.

Patrick Roy was snubbed by team Canada until 1998, Oates-Francis all their career long and so on. The WHA being a big example of players snubbed.

 

[JackSlater]

I don't know that chemistry would have mattered much. Stamkos usually played wing for Canada internationally and there is a good chance he was supposed to be a RW on that team. To be fair, Stamkos played LW and St. Louis played RW in 2009 and St. Louis in particular was excellent.

St. Louis has got to be easily the most underrated two-time Ross winner. Crazy that he is Canadian, too, because typically the Euros get the short end a bit.

Like everyone said, Yzerman shouldnt have just picked 'his guys', but this guybwas someone he should have picked, I think.

I think that most people don't just trophy count and recognize the context in which those two Art Ross trophies happened. I don't really get the case for someone saying that Yzerman should have picked St. Louis given that St. Louis ended up on the team and was useless. It's not a hypothetical, we saw him play and he didn't fit on that team. He was a bottom three forward with Sharp and Kunitz.

Would it be akin to leaving Mitch Marner off in 2026? Ranks really high in scoring, playmaking first winger that doesn't necessarily score a lot of goals, not necessarily the big, hard hitting, forechecker type of wing.. but Marner is well regarded for PK, backchecking and in-zone defensive play.. although Giroux was kind of those things also and got left off.

That's a very good comparison and I suspect that there are good odds that Marner wouldn't make Canada in 2022 and may not in 2026. St. Louis didn't have the mentality questions that Marner has, but Marner is solid defensively while St. Louis wasn't. Playmakers are historically hard pressed to make Canada and those that do are usually centres rather than wingers, Kariya being a somewhat recent exception. I do believe that Giroux is a much harder to justify snub in 2014 than St. Louis ever was.

 

[Dingo]

Marty was also 2nd and 5th in the Art Ross, and a backchecker. Great hockey player.

 

[Crosby2010]

That's a very good comparison and I suspect that there are good odds that Marner wouldn't make Canada in 2022 and may not in 2026. St. Louis didn't have the mentality questions that Marner has, but Marner is solid defensively while St. Louis wasn't. Playmakers are historically hard pressed to make Canada and those that do are usually centres rather than wingers, Kariya being a somewhat recent exception. I do believe that Giroux is a much harder to justify snub in 2014 than St. Louis ever was.

You never know with Marner. There could be that mental block that he still has by then of having every opportunity to thrive in the playoffs and not doing so. Would that affect his chances of being picked? Who knows. But it wouldn't surprise me. Like you said, playmaking wingers aren't always at the top. Kariya was also a pretty darn good goal scorer too. But even with him they didn't pick him surprisingly in 2004. That one I still don't get. 2006 maybe, but 2004 I don't know anyone who didn't have him penciled in.

I actually think the Letang omission was bigger than St. Louis. There was this weird mindset Babcock had, and maybe he was right we did win after all, that he wanted an equal amount of right handed shooting defenseman as left handed. Well, we were loaded on the right handed side. So there were good right handed shooting guys left off. Babcock had that same mindset in 2016 and left Letang off the team then too. Now I have no idea what Letang possibly could have done better in 2016 because he won a Cup, was a Smythe candidate, was a 2nd team all-star on defense, had 67 points. No clue. But I suspect the Pens recent playoff failures leading up to 2014 is what kept him off, ditto Fleury as the 3rd string goalie. This is why they went with Mike Smith(!) over him. Even in 2016 Giroux was picked but he only played one game. Babcock was like Keenan, there were guys he simply didn't like and since he won you got over it.

Second language so I could be all wrong, but being good enough to be considered but not invited is what make it a snub, the fact a committee thought and voted him down is the snub, not something that remove being snubbed.

The tens of thousands of Canadians adult hockey players that were not even in the discussion were not snubbed, only those in reasonable contention for a spot can be.

Patrick Roy was snubbed by team Canada until 1998, Oates-Francis all their career long and so on. The WHA being a big example of players snubbed.

But were they wrong? Did St. Louis fit on the team? I would take Kunitz off and put him on Crosby's line if you ask me, but did St. Louis have the speed at this time to play on the big ice? I honestly wonder when Stamkos went down if St. Louis was even Yzerman's first pick as a back up. He had to pick him because there was so much public pressure but maybe it was Giroux that would be picked. Maybe it was still Iggy. Or Thornton. Or Marchand or Staal. Who knows.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Letang had a stroke in 2014. Returned to practice 10 weeks later in March. Don't think he was available. They may have announced the roster before, but I don't see anything at the time that suggested he was a huge snub. Giordano or Boyle was probably the next Defenseman. Best I can see is Letang would have been on a hypothetical "B" team. Definitely a huge snub for the 2016 World Cup of Hockey.

 

[tyhee]

I don't think hindsight has anything to do with it and haven't changed my mind since it happened.

It was a surprise that MSL wasn't picked and understood his feelings being hurt. I could even understand him requesting a trade, but he had no business insisting on it. He has great company on the entitled brat list with Patrick Roy.

 

[JackSlater]

You never know with Marner. There could be that mental block that he still has by then of having every opportunity to thrive in the playoffs and not doing so. Would that affect his chances of being picked? Who knows. But it wouldn't surprise me. Like you said, playmaking wingers aren't always at the top. Kariya was also a pretty darn good goal scorer too. But even with him they didn't pick him surprisingly in 2004. That one I still don't get. 2006 maybe, but 2004 I don't know anyone who didn't have him penciled in.

I actually think the Letang omission was bigger than St. Louis. There was this weird mindset Babcock had, and maybe he was right we did win after all, that he wanted an equal amount of right handed shooting defenseman as left handed. Well, we were loaded on the right handed side. So there were good right handed shooting guys left off. Babcock had that same mindset in 2016 and left Letang off the team then too. Now I have no idea what Letang possibly could have done better in 2016 because he won a Cup, was a Smythe candidate, was a 2nd team all-star on defense, had 67 points. No clue. But I suspect the Pens recent playoff failures leading up to 2014 is what kept him off, ditto Fleury as the 3rd string goalie. This is why they went with Mike Smith(!) over him. Even in 2016 Giroux was picked but he only played one game. Babcock was like Keenan, there were guys he simply didn't like and since he won you got over it.



But were they wrong? Did St. Louis fit on the team? I would take Kunitz off and put him on Crosby's line if you ask me, but did St. Louis have the speed at this time to play on the big ice? I honestly wonder when Stamkos went down if St. Louis was even Yzerman's first pick as a back up. He had to pick him because there was so much public pressure but maybe it was Giroux that would be picked. Maybe it was still Iggy. Or Thornton. Or Marchand or Staal. Who knows.

I remember correctly predicting the eight defencemen Canada would pick. Letang wouldn't have shocked me but I fully expect he would have gotten the Subban treatment and been relegated to the press box. Doughty and Weber were clearly higher in the right side pecking order and Pietrangelo was a smarter and less risky player who had a potential pairing partner in Bouwmeester. Subban was a somewhat similar to Letang but Letang hadn't played for Canada since junior (still hasn't) and, I don't think that this was a big factor, Subban at least flew over immediately after being eliminated from the 2013 playoffs and played for Canada. If Letang had played the full season in 2013 and won the Norris he probably makes it over Subban.

I don't think that Fleury was a real consideration at that point. He was basically a league average goaltender who seemed erratic in big moments. Price was the now the young goaltender worth investing in.

 

[MadLuke]

But were they wrong? Did St. Louis fit on the team?

You cannot really be wrong or right here in some absolute sense, and considering they won the 2 gold leaving St-Louis at home, ultimately much easier to argue they were right.

I think (and maybe that something Yzerman know more), it was more an possible an issue in 2010 than 2014, by the 2014 St-Louis was done has arguably the most dynamic playmaking winger, even if he and most people did not know yet.

And in 2010 not sure they were "wrong" either, going all with really big and fast winger is not a bad idea, special when they can overwhelm not always that big opposition.

 

[Crosby2010]

I remember correctly predicting the eight defencemen Canada would pick. Letang wouldn't have shocked me but I fully expect he would have gotten the Subban treatment and been relegated to the press box. Doughty and Weber were clearly higher in the right side pecking order and Pietrangelo was a smarter and less risky player who had a potential pairing partner in Bouwmeester. Subban was a somewhat similar to Letang but Letang hadn't played for Canada since junior (still hasn't) and, I don't think that this was a big factor, Subban at least flew over immediately after being eliminated from the 2013 playoffs and played for Canada. If Letang had played the full season in 2013 and won the Norris he probably makes it over Subban.

I don't think that Fleury was a real consideration at that point. He was basically a league average goaltender who seemed erratic in big moments. Price was the now the young goaltender worth investing in.

That is pretty good guessing, because I figured Boyle might still have some left to give and I had Seabrook pegged as one of the guys too. If you are serious about correctly predicting the 8 defenseman, that's Keith, Bouwmeester, Hamhuis, Vlasic, Doughty, Weber, Pietrangelo and Subban. I will admit I'd have been off about a couple of them. But I should always remember that Canada traditionally takes a pure stay at home type every single time. Even in 1976 with Jimmy Watson.

As for Fleury, I wouldn't have had him as the #1 or #2 guy. That was clearly Price/Luongo at that time. Maybe the #3 guy. He had been benched in the 2013 playoffs and I don't think anything he did to start the 2013-'14 season would have mattered. Canada sometimes goes off the grid for the #3 guy. I was just surprised about Mike Smith. There were lots of options at that time to be honest. Canada wasn't hurting for goaltenders 10 years ago. Even Brodeur isn't a horrible #3 pick. Steve Mason comes to mind too. But my pick might have been Corey Crawford. He had just won a Cup and was pretty Smythe-worthy that year too.

You cannot really be wrong or right here in some absolute sense, and considering they won the 2 gold leaving St-Louis at home, ultimately much easier to argue they were right.

I think (and maybe that something Yzerman know more), it was more an possible an issue in 2010 than 2014, by the 2014 St-Louis was done has arguably the most dynamic playmaking winger, even if he and most people did not know yet.

And in 2010 not sure they were "wrong" either, going all with really big and fast winger is not a bad idea, special when they can overwhelm not always that big opposition.

The 2010 team was just so super stacked. St. Louis wasn't on the team, Carter wasn't, Stamkos wasn't. Brad Richards and Lecavalier weren't on the team, although it was the correct choice, as they just lost to a numbers game by then and Lecavalier had probably played himself off the team. Marc Savard, never a guy you might pick anyway, was not on the team, nor considered. This just means Canada was scary-stacked!

Letang had a stroke in 2014. Returned to practice 10 weeks later in March. Don't think he was available. They may have announced the roster before, but I don't see anything at the time that suggested he was a huge snub. Giordano or Boyle was probably the next Defenseman. Best I can see is Letang would have been on a hypothetical "B" team. Definitely a huge snub for the 2016 World Cup of Hockey.

That is correct. He wouldn't have been available but when the team was picked he was healthy. I was surprised he wasn't among the picks when the team was named.

 

[The Panther]

Let's see, so far we have claims that St.Louis had "a tantrum" and not only requested but "insisted" on a trade.

Is any of this actually verifiable?

Is it in any way possible that St.Louis was on his way out of Tampa anyway?

 

[Michael Farkas]

That wasn't the first time St. Louis asked out of Tampa. Whether that's requested or asked or insisted or whatever categorically similar verb gets used...it amounts to the same thing. St. Louis - each time - requested that he not only be moved, but be moved to one specific team. That's a handcuffing move, no matter how you slice it.

And yes, St. Louis said that being left off the Olympic team was part of the equation for wanting out. It clearly was the last straw. It broke the relationship with Yzerman, for all intents and purposes. Whenever you ask someone, "what's your relationship with [co-worker]" and your response is "cordial, professional" that has a pretty obvious connotation haha

 

[The Panther]

That wasn't the first time St. Louis asked out of Tampa.

I didn't know this. When was the first time?

Whether that's requested or asked or insisted or whatever categorically similar verb gets used...it amounts to the same thing.

No, it doesn't. A poster specifically stated that St.Louis didn't request but "demanded" a trade; i.e., the poster clearly distinguishes these two things (as do most of us). My point is: If we're going to claim that he "demanded" a trade, we should actually know that, not just assume with no evidence.

And yes, St. Louis said that being left off the Olympic team was part of the equation for wanting out.

Does anyone have the link to / source for this? I'm sure it exists, but I've never seen/heard it.

It clearly was the last straw. It broke the relationship with Yzerman, for all intents and purposes.

Maybe. I'm just asking for some evidence for this.

 

[Michael Farkas]

He asked in '08 and perhaps again in '09.

A number of articles from the time use the term "demand", others use "request". There's an element of the ask here, but there's also an element of the situation. Like, Darnell Nurse could demand a trade right now until he's blue in the face, but there isn't a team in the NHL that would take that contract. The timing and situation and circumstances tilts towards "demand"...but what's the "proof" here? You want a recording of the conversation? I get what you're saying to a degree, but this isn't something that you're going to get proof of...and the absence of such is not proof of the opposite either.

Family, GM rift factor in St. Louis' Lightning exit

TAMPA — Marty St. Louis said being left off the initial Olympic roster for Canada, run by Lightning general manager Steve Yzerman, definitely "had something to do" with his decision to ask for a...

www.tampabay.com

Marty St. Louis said being left off the initial Olympic roster for Canada, run by Lightning general manager Steve Yzerman, definitely "had something to do" with his decision to ask for a trade and leave Tampa Bay.

 

[buffalowing88]

I always thought St. Louis had a bit of a little-man syndrome thing which he probably needed in order to succeed at his size and at the levels he attained. He was absolutely in the wrong for this from a teammate/player level with both his NHL team and putting the Canadian team in a bind. I can't say it's completely unwarranted, though, and I have never been a big fan of MSL to begin with.

 

[sr edler]

St. Louis was a similar type of player to Recchi, and Recchi was also an afterthought-ish presence in international hockey.

At least with someone like Oates we didn't have to see the thing happen but only hear the passive aggressive complaints about how international hockey sucks.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

I don’t think St. Louis was in the wrong at all.

For the 2010 Olympics, Mikael Samuelsson told the Swedish federation to go f*** themselves when he was snubbed (I think he was having a career year and probably liked his chances as the ‘third Sedin’). Samuelsson wasn’t half the player St. Louis was and despite competing for a spot on a worse team, I don’t think had anything near St. Louis’ “reigning Art Ross winner” case. At any rate, I loved him him for reacting that strongly and bluntly. And similarly, I respect St. Louis for not taking the perceived disrespect sitting down.

That doesn’t mean Yzerman made tough decisions with his head in the right place.

 

[CharlestownChiefsESC]

I didn't know this. When was the first time?

Was in 09 actually after the embarrassment of Barry Melrose in 08-09 he felt the organization was in trouble and said he wanted to go to the Rangers to be closer to his wife's family. He was dissuaded by the fo with them saying to give Stamkos a shot